Neizbezno i nedostizno..

First topic message reminder :

''Ne pokusavajmo da izbegnemo neizbezno i da dostignemo nedostizno''.Iza ovih reci,krije se zivotna mudrost.Nikad nam zivot nece dati manje nego sto nam je potrebno.Ako mislimo da se sa njim mozemo cenkati,sigurno cemo biti nesrecni.Zivot ima svoju jednostavnu mudrost,koja se ogleda u tome da ga je nemoguce prevariti.U zelji da nadmudrimo zivot,sami sebe obmanjujemo...

Recimo na primeru ''smrti''...Svi znamo da cemo umreti...(Kao sto je poznato,tu nema izuzetka... ..)A,otprilike svi smo u vlasti straha od smrti..vecina nas se plasi umiranja -a to je nekako pokusaj da se izbegne neizbezno..
Naravno trud oko toga je uzaludan,i nikako smrt ne mozemo izbeci...ali mi smo uporni i zato psihicki stradamo

Vecito smisljamo opasnosti,koje mogu da nam se dogode,bojimo se izmisljenih pretnji i svu snagu upiremo u njihovo izbegavanje....

Ima smisla, da se saglasimo sa tim da smo svi smrtni,da ce ona doci u svoje vreme i da tu ne moze nista da se uradi...

To bi bilo ono neizbezno....

A.. nedostizno...

Bojimo se i onoga sto nas ne ugrozava ,ali i zudimo za onim sto nas ne privlaci.Pri svojoj tezji da dostignemo nedostizno,ispoljavamo neke,zacudujuce lose osobine...

Mastamo da se u nas zaljube oni koji uopste ne mare za nas.Nasa deca racunaju da cemo i kao roditelji uvek razumeti(kao da mi nemamo svoje misljenje!)A,mi Roditelji se nadamo da ce deca uvek biti uz nas i to uz puno ljubavi i brige(kao da nasa deca nemaju svoj zivot)Svi sebi crtamo svoju srecu...

Istovremeno potpuno ignorisemo ono sto je moguce i dostizno...Posledica svega je, da se osecamo prevareno i ronimo gorke suze!Da bismo problem resili,potrebno je da sebi detaljno i uverljivo nacrtamo ono ''sto... zelimo''..Crtezi su toliko ''sareni'',da shvatamo u kojoj smo zabludi bili...Zbog toga ,ulazimo u fazu ocaja ,buduci da s shvatamo da smo dugo tezili nedostiznom...

Ako se trgnemo,i sada pogledamo okolo,videcemo da se zivot nije ni slucajno zavrsio,da ide svojim tokom kao sto je i isao...pocecemo da otkrivamo sta je sta i shvatiti da u zivotu postoje realne stvari koje ce nas radovati..i ne postoji''mala sreca''..Sreca je uvek sreca ,a srecan covek ne razmislja da li je ona mala ili velika!Kada smo srecni...vise od toga nam ne treba ...Tada je svaka sreca ogromna ,pa i ona koja izgleda majusna...

Sta vi na ovo kazete..?Sta je za vas neizbezno i nedostizno..u zivotu???

Lakota ::

..covece,ala volem kad kona i Nut krenu da se nadmudruju    

hahahahahaahahahah Vjezba bona, najbolja  :baba:  :rlol: 

Slažem se s Astrinim viđenjem stvari. Mogu ja da hoću da sviram klavir. Ako se dovoljno zainatim naučiću ali ... e to ali je ono što treba prepoznati u sebi. Nismo svi rođeni s darom za sve. Mnogi su upropastili život pokušavajući to što je za njih nedostižno. Ili ispunjavajući tuđe, najčešće roditeljske, ambicije. Rodiš se kao talenat za tenis i radom postaneš Đoković. Samo radom možeš da budeš prosečan ili još češće promašen slučaj.

Ali mnogo je i onih koji se prepuste matici da ih nosi ni ne pokušavajući da plivaju. "Kriv je trener koji me nije stavljao u tim" ... "Krivi su mama i tata koji su me naterali da upišem tu školu" ... svi su krivi samo ja nisam. Istina postoje neke društvene okolnosti koje te ograniče ali izvuci iz sebe maksimum u datim okolnostima.

Kako kaže ona izreka: Nije važno koliko puta padneš već koliko puta si spreman da ustaneš.

P.S. I ja ko Kona ne mogu da se oslobodim matematičkog i materijalističkog pogleda na svet.

Mozes ti gledati i matematicki i filozofski...bitno je povuci granicu medju njima...svi mi imamo mastu,ponekad pobjegnemo u nju i sanjamo,ali treba biti svjestan da svaki san ima i budjenje.

Astra ::

Mozes ti gledati i matematicki i filozofski...bitno je povuci granicu medju njima...svi mi imamo mastu,ponekad pobjegnemo u nju i sanjamo,ali treba biti svjestan da svaki san ima i budjenje.

Pa to i kažem. Mogu ja da sanjam svetske pozornice i na njima veliki crni klavir i mene kako sviram na njemu ali svesna sam toga da iz blok flaute u osnovnoj školi nisam mogla da izvučem tri vezana tona. Znači budna sam i svesna svojih ograničenja. To je taj matematičko-materijalistički deo mene... Snovi jesu lepi i nekad daju i snagu da se pregura realnost ali od snova, samo snova, se ne živi.

AstrinaKomsinica ::

Mogu:) Jer psihologija je sve ali nije nauka:) A kao prvenstveno matematicki mozak imam srecu da mogu da racionaliziram, i da usput prepoznam stvarnost i razlucim je od pustog nedostiznog mastanja   

A sto se prebacivanja loptice tice, ipak mislim da si ti ta koja se povuce na prvi pravi argument, pa pokusa u drugom court   :zubi3: 

..

Jer psihologija je sve,ali nije nauka..Znas li ti sta si napisala????    ..
Psihologija je najvaznija i najslozenija nauka..koja postoji..Radjanje psiholoske nauke moze se  nazvati budjenjem samosvesti coveka..
Istina je da je psihologija  samo,mlada nauka i da je njoj  jedva nesto vise od pola veka..A posto ti ''svuda  trpas sebe ''(nastupas licno..sto je daleko od objektivnog), ja eto predlazem osnivanje tvoje psihologije..'Konina psihologija''..  ..

Sto se tice argumenata,kako god se mi zabavljali ovde i ti mozda pisala zabave radi(vidim da nekima ova prepiska bas prija..)..ja od tebe nista ne videh po tom pitanju..a kada mi ne mozes doskociti,odmah Nut ''nema dokaza,argumenata''..kao da sam ja izmislila termine u psihologiji i psihijatriji i sire..Mesas Individuu,sa indiv.stvarima i pri tom , stavljas epitete koji ne stoje..jer prosto..se zna u nauci, STA JE STA..?E onda kada ne mozemo pricati na istoj razini,ti ''napadas,diskvalifikujes..i te stvari''..
Nut nema argumenata..?Ma,sestro slatka,otvori bilo koju enciklop.iz psihologije pa malo iscitaj.neke stvari..Sta je individua,sta je licnost.kako s e postaje licnost ..i jos pronadji onu tvoju cuvenu '' nepostojecu individuu''to bih jako volela da mi kazes..

Nut nikada i nista ne pise bez veze,a jos na stranu to,sto si u mojem polju delovanja..To bi isto bilo,kao kada bih se ja mesala u tvoj posao..i pricala o stvarima koje ti dobro poznajes..Mada  ja ,ipak nekako mislim da je ovo tvoje pisanie zabava za sire mase..pa ti bas i nije vazno..sta ko,kako...E takoooooo...

I ne samo  da ''izvrces stvari'' nego ti znas o meni,poznajes moje misli,a da ja,iste  ne znam..To je interesantno..Ne znam sta je tvoja struka..i ne bih ovoliko pisala..da nisi napisala neke zaista ''cudne '' stvari''..

Ps:Racionalizacija ..pravilno shvacena ,jedan od najcesce koriscenih mehanizama odbrane,gde za  svoje neuspehe ili neprihvatljiva ponasanja  naknadno trazimo logicna opravdanja.
Time se stitimo (nas ego..)od mase  negativnih emocija,osecanja stida i prividno odrzavamo ugrozeno samopouzdanje licnosti..Zapravo ,zelimo skriti od sebe i drugih, stvarni motiv naseg  ponasanja...

Zox je napisala odlican post..I Astra,kao i uvek...

..

Nutela ::

Jer psihologija je sve,ali nije nauka..Znas li ti sta si napisala????    ..

Apsolutno da znam, ali izgleda da si ti zastala na trecoj godini    :rlol:  :rlol:  :rlol: 

Nutela ::

Psihologija je najvaznija i najslozenija nauka..koja postoji..Radjanje psiholoske nauke moze se  nazvati budjenjem samosvesti coveka..
Istina je da je psihologija  samo,mlada nauka i da je njoj  jedva nesto vise od pola veka..A posto ti ''svuda  trpas sebe ''(nastupas licno..sto je daleko od objektivnog), ja eto predlazem osnivanje tvoje psihologije..'Konina psihologija''..  ..

Konina, i citavog edukovanog svijeta, pa ti vidi;)

Nutela ::

Sto se tice argumenata,kako god se mi zabavljali ovde i ti mozda pisala zabave radi(vidim da nekima ova prepiska bas prija..)..ja od tebe nista ne videh po tom pitanju..a kada mi ne mozes doskociti,odmah Nut ''nema dokaza,argumenata''..kao da sam ja izmislila termine u psihologiji i psihijatriji i sire..Mesas Individuu,sa indiv.stvarima i pri tom , stavljas epitete koji ne stoje..jer prosto..se zna u nauci, STA JE STA..?E onda kada ne mozemo pricati na istoj razini,ti ''napadas,diskvalifikujes..i te stvari''..
Nut nema argumenata..?Ma,sestro slatka,otvori bilo koju enciklop.iz psihologije pa malo iscitaj.neke stvari..Sta je individua,sta je licnost.kako s e postaje licnost ..i jos pronadji onu tvoju cuvenu '' nepostojecu individuu''to bih jako volela da mi kazes..

Ponavljam: Nemas argumenata:) Tu suplju, ostrascenu mozes prodati nekom ko pojma o tematici nema, al ja imam   
Evo da se malo edukujes argumentima:
Ways of Knowing

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Is Psychology Science?

Peter Rickman tells us why it isn’t.

I was slightly taken aback when I heard a speaker at a psychology lecture meeting claiming confidently that psychology was a science. Of course, if we define science broadly, as the systematic search for knowledge, psychology would qualify for that label. But it is not terminology that is at issue here, but a matter of substantial importance.

When we talk of science, we primarily think of physical science. If a mother said that her son was studying science at Cambridge, would psychology come first to the listener’s mind? The paradigm of the physical sciences is physics, because its elegant theories based on ample observation and experimentation provide clear explanations and reliable predictions. It also provides the foundations for the technologies which have transformed our lives. The man on the Clapham bus may not understand the laws of physics, but he happily relies on the means of transport based on those laws.

In consequence, the methods of physics become the model of scientific methodology. The different disciplines concerned with the study of humanity, such as psychology, sociology and anthropology, seem to fall woefully short of this. The concepts and theories of these disciplines are not consistently coordinated; and their application does not compare with that of physical sciences. While aeroplanes are pretty reliable, and millions of people enjoy television programmes, there are still too many divorces and mental breakdowns. Groups of violent youths still roam the city streets.

Unobservable Truths

Many students of the mind sought the remedy for their failures and their lack of public esteem in modelling the methods of psychology on the physical sciences. An extreme example of this is behaviourism. Why not focus on studying observable human behaviour, as you can study the movements of falling bodies and theorise on that evidence? After all, humans are behaving bodies. There are various flaws in this approach, and one of them is illustrated by a well-targeted joke. Two behaviourists spend a night passionately making love. In the morning, one says to the other, “It was good for you. How was it for me?”

A proper starting point is to recognise the disciplines which study human nature as a distinct group which require, if not a complete alternative to the scientific method, at least some essential supplementary methodology.

The fact is that the bulk of the evidence given to the student of humanity on which to theorise, are not observable facts, but communications. These do not correspond to anything observable. In other words, what is in front of the psychologist are statements from interviews or completed questionnaires (eg, I am afraid of dying, I was abused in childhood, etc), responses to tests such as the Rorschach pictures, diaries, and the like. Similarly, sociologists use interviews, questionnaires and legal documents, while historians use biographies, letters, inscriptions on gravestones, eyewitness accounts of battles and revolutions and similar material. The same is true of other human studies such as social anthropology or politics.

All this is pretty obvious and non-controversial. It needs mentioning because of widespread error of taking what is communicated in this material as simple data whose meaning is transparent. What is thus ignored is the immense complexity of the process of communication. For instance, the question, as well as the answers, may be misunderstood, or respondents may be lying to please the questioner, motivated by pride or shame or simply by wanting to get rid of the questioner. A lady confessed to me that when canvassers of different parties come to the door at election time, she says to all of them, “Yes I shall vote for you,” and closes the door. Or, if a stranger rings your doorbell and asks you how often you have sex, will you necessarily tell him the truth? Certainly, commercial companies have been the loser when trying to sell goods because of so many people trying to be liked when answering their questionnaires.

An anecdote I quoted in one of my books illustrates one type of miscommunication. An investigator was puzzled when a man in prison answered ‘no’ to the questionnaire query ‘Were you ever in trouble with the police?’ He went to see the man and asked: “How come you gave that answer? After all, you are serving a prison sentence.” The man answered: “Oh, I thought you meant trouble.”

A case of partial failure in understanding is the famous study of the Authoritarian Personality, which successfully demonstrated some personality traits of fascists. It was later shown that the characteristics pinpointed were not confined to fascists, but also shared by members of left-wing parties. Here the interpretation of the data was flawed by political na ďvety.

It follows that the human studies cannot naďvely ape physical science. If they don’t want to resign themselves to being woolly and merely anecdotal, they must therefore address themselves systematically to the complex problems of communication.

Hermes and Hermeneutics

There is an ancient discipline concerned with the interpretation of communications. In Ancient Greece, education focused on the study of literary texts. The theory and methodological approach for the understanding of such texts was called hermeneutics, after Hermes, the messenger of the gods. With the advent of Christianity, quarrels and schisms arose over the exact meaning of Biblical texts. To help settle these differences of opinion hermeneutics then became a branch of theology. This systematic textual interpretation continued throughout Antiquity and the Middle Ages up to modern times. Schleiermacher, philosopher, theologian and translator of Plato, was a professor of hermeneutics who widened the concept of this discipline. Not only texts but all other kinds of communication needed interpretation and could be subjected to this type of examination. Wilhelm Dilthey, a pupil of some of Schleiermacher’s followers, systematically developed Schleiermacher’s approach, demonstrating the vital contribution hermeneutics had to make to the human studies.

This is not the place for a full, systematic account of hermeneutics, but it is the place for drawing attention to some distinctive features of its methodology which are highly relevant. First, one needs to emphasise that unlike physical science, the focus of understanding in hermeneutics is not classes but individuals. Primarily, we aim to understand a poem, not poetry in general; a particular person, not the group to which he belongs. By contrast, in physics or chemistry, the example investigated is not of intrinsic interest. Once the experiment is finished, the contents of the test tube may be poured down the sink: they’re only useful inasmuch as they help form general laws. Yet in the human studies, the individual thing studied – it may be a person, a family or a whole community – remains of interest. The classic sociological study of ‘Middletown’ or the analyses of Sigmund Freud are examples.

Physical objects are substantially explained in terms of the class to which they belong. This is a diamond, this is a table, etc, and they behave in such-and-such ways. But such explanations of human beings – eg, she is a woman, he is a teenager, etc – are inadequate, and often rightly condemned as stereotyping. Instead, we tend to better understand individuals by placing them their context. A simple example concerns the way in which the correct meaning of a word is only specified by the sentence and general context in which it occurs. Terms such as ‘club’ or ‘file’ have several distinct definitions, and the meaning is determined only in the particular statement in which they occur. Similarly, a gesture like raising your hand might be understood as a greeting, a threat, or otherwise, according to other aspects of the circumstances which accompany the act.

Each meaningful expression is a crossing point of contexts. Take, for example, the John Donne poem ‘The Sun Rising’:

Busy old fool, unruly Sun,
Why dost thou thus,
Through windows, and through curtains, call on us?
Must to thy motions lovers’ seasons run?
Saucy pedantic wretch, go chide
Late school-boys and sour prentices,
Go tell court-huntsmen that the king will ride,
Call country ants to harvest offices;
Love, all alike, no season knows nor clime,
Nor hours, days, months, which are the rags of time.

Its grammar and vocabulary is obviously one of its contexts; but the context is also the history of the sonnets, Donne’s personality, and the conditions and conventions of his age. To understand the poem with insight – though on one level it appears to be immediately accessible? – we have to trace the different contexts as far as is fruitful and practicable.

Different Types of Disciplines

Because of the distinct methodologies involved, the distinction between the two groups of disciplines, the physical sciences and the human studies, is both necessary and justified. Of course, there are features common to both groups. Such processes as checking data, forming and testing hypotheses and the like, are required for all systematic research. Some of the methods of the physical sciences are also required in the social studies. The authenticity of manuscripts may need to be chemically tested, vital statistics analysed, and the like. Typical methods of the human studies are also not wholly? absent from the physical sciences. For example, in astronomy, the movements of planets may be explained with reference to their contexts, such as their relation to other planets or against the background of the stars.

It remains true, however, that a human study such as psychology is not a science in the same sense as physics, because whatever it shares with the scientific method, it also receives essential support from the methods of hermeneutics. Faced with communications, we need to establish the background, likely knowledge and personal motives of the communicator.

© Prof. Peter Rickman 2009

Nutela ::

mislim da je ovo tvoje pisanie zabava za sire mase..pa ti bas i nije vazno..sta ko,kako...E takoooooo...

Wrong:) Zabava samo za mene:) Nemam sta da dokazem, ali imam puno da kazem po subjektu, specijalno kad neko ne zna nego kako samo on misli, u ovom slucaju - ti:)

Nutela ::

ne samo  da ''izvrces stvari'' nego ti znas o meni,poznajes moje misli,a da ja,iste  ne znam..

Da, poznajem, a poznajes i ti, samo si u denial:)

Nutela ::

Ps:Racionalizacija ..pravilno shvacena ,jedan od najcesce koriscenih mehanizama odbrane,gde za  svoje neuspehe ili neprihvatljiva ponasanja  naknadno trazimo logicna opravdanja..

Ne draga, racionalizacija je dio naucnog procesa, a spavanje u iluzijama, i skrivanje iza istih je samoodbrana napacenih dusica koje znaju da nemaju hrabrosti da se suoce sa stvarnim zivotom:)

Nista licno, samo naucno   

Najstarije religije i duhovne tradicije dele zajednicko shvatanje da je nase''normalno'' stanje uma pomuceno fundamentalnim defektom..Medjutim,iz ovog shvatanja o prirodi ljudskog stanja ,koje se moze nazvati losom vescu,radja se drugo shvatanje..dobra vest o mogucnosti radikalne transformacije ljudske svesti...
Moguce da je ovo za vecinu ljudi nedostizno..ili pak nije..

mislim da su 2 stvari neizbježene...prva je rođenje, druga je smrt...ovu prvi ste zaboravli, iako ćete reći da o tome mi odlučujemo...ali zaboravljamo prve počece života...mada se danas rođenje može kontrolirati...ali opet se desi...jer bez tog rođenja ne bismo bili tu di samo sada ili pisali tu...

što je nedostižno, pa svi ste se osvrnuli na materilajno i karijeru...trenutno i možda još nekih 100g nedostižno je da koristimo svoj mozak za ono što je namjenjen...iako svi mislimo da ga koristimo pravilno...međutim da je tako, ne bi bilo ratova, bijede, bolesti itd. znači njegova stopostotna iskorištenost još nije dostignuta , pitanje je da li će ikada biti, kaka i kako...tako da mi to predstavlja jednu vrstu idela...iako nisam poklonik idola ili ideala...ali u tom slučaju to bi bio sklad čovjeka i prirode i čovjeka opet...ovako je za mene to utopija i tko zna kada će prestati da bude to...možda jednog dana i bude konačno dostižno...

Lako je kad znas sta je nedostizno i ne pokusavas,jer si svjestan svojih mogucnosti,snage za nesto,jer ne ide ni glavom kroz...ali je tesko kad ti se nesto ucini dostiznim,ulozis sebe,ulozis dio zivota....nade i na takvim temeljima cak kupis sav materijal za gradnju vile i onda kasno shvatis da si ipak na stranputici i da si se borio sa vjetrenjacama...da neke stvari ne mogu biti nikako drugacije nego takve kakve su.
Okrenes se i kazes....ode u nepovrat toliki trud....e to je tesko,jer na tren ti se ucini da je sve moguce,da imas snagu i volju...dok ne naletis na ostru liticu...pa ili nazad ili u provaliju.

Astra ::

Lako je kad znas sta je nedostizno i ne pokusavas,jer si svjestan svojih mogucnosti,snage za nesto,jer ne ide ni glavom kroz...ali je tesko kad ti se nesto ucini dostiznim,ulozis sebe,ulozis dio zivota....nade i na takvim temeljima cak kupis sav materijal za gradnju vile i onda kasno shvatis da si ipak na stranputici i da si se borio sa vjetrenjacama...da neke stvari ne mogu biti nikako drugacije nego takve kakve su.
Okrenes se i kazes....ode u nepovrat toliki trud....e to je tesko,jer na tren ti se ucini da je sve moguce,da imas snagu i volju...dok ne naletis na ostru liticu...pa ili nazad ili u provaliju.

Odlican racionalan post,ali ovde sam nekako zamislila, ''neizbezno i nedostizno'' sa filosofskog aspekta..

Gore neko je napisao..da je rodjenje neizbezno..nisam sigurna..rodis se ili ne..odlucuje neka sila o tome..pa onda se to dogodi ili ne dogodi....Ako se vec desi..onda mi to nazivamo neizbeznim delom snage prirode ili Boga...jer nam je konstatovano postojanje..

..Rodjenje je ''pocetak kraja''..Naravno u metafizickom smislu,posmatrajuci dolazak na svet,  mozemo reci da je  sam postanak u tesnoj vezi sa smrcu..neizbeznom pojavom..Iza cele stvari  ,stoji strah..to je sustina..ne bojimo se smrti..nego samog cina umiranja..to je ..

Snovi-neizbezna stvar...tako reci i nedostizna..
Nesto interesantno..!!!

Ponekad sanjamo ''ogledalo'' ili ogledala...

U snovima,ogledalo  moze da simbolise moc nesvesnog da ''ogleda'' pojedinca objektivno-pruzajuci mu onu sliku o sebi koju mozda nikada ranije nije video...Pogled na takvu sliku (koja obicno potrese i uznemiri svestan um)moze da se postigne samo pomocu nesvesnog -bas kao Gorgona Meduza iz grckog mita,ciji je pogled pretvarao ljude u kamen i koja je mogla da se gleda samo u ogledalu... neizbezno..

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